Lucas Cantor: “I Don’t Think Anybody Knows What AI Is”

0:00 Lucas Cantor: You know, Georgie, I want to push back on that. I don't think anybody knows what AI is. Huawei asked me to finish Schubert's Unfinished Symphony using artificial intelligence, and I would have thought this would be a competitive gig, but I think I was the only qualified person who said yes. And they all have some version of the same answer, which is that I'm sure artificial intelligence can do fill in something that they're not an expert in, but I doubt that it could do a thing that they know all the details of. The biggest problem with AI and people's reaction to it is that the idea of artificial intelligence engages. Engages a part of your brain that does not require you to think critically. It engages the part of your brain that wants to suspend disbelief. Because AI it's a story. What it does is it helps creative people do things better, which is useful if you are a creative person, but it is not useful if you are not a creative person. Music is cooler and more intricate and more interesting today than it's ever been. So I think there's nothing to be afraid of.

0:57 Georgie Healy: Hello, welcome to In the Blink of AI I'm Georgie Healy and this week my guest has two Emmys. He scored for Fox, NBC, Disney, Netflix. He's produced with Lorde that Lorde. Huawei approached him to leverage AI to finish Schubert's unfinished 8th Symphony. The dude was long gone. How can we finish this beautiful symphony? And that experience was so incredible and the final product was so incredible that it ended up touring orchestras with orchestras worldwide. Lucas Cantor Santiago is a composer, producer and music tech vc. He's freaking incredible. This episode was so nuanced with how technology can be leveraged for someone that's ultimately a very creative person. He recently published a book talking about this experience and asking the key question, what is left for the artists when machines can literally finish your work for you? I just loved this chat. So side note, 70% of you that regularly listen to this show are not subscribed, which is wild because last week we reached number 10 in the Spotify business charts. Thank you. Because that is due to people pressing follow rating the show and if you're not doing that now, you know how much of a difference it really makes. Please follow. Please subscribe wherever you are. If you can rate it. That's huge. And it helps me get these kinds of incredible guests and improve the show every single week. Lets dive in.

2:27 Lucas Cantor: You're listening to a Day One FM show.

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2:53 Georgie Healy: Lucas, congratulations. You've had a new and recent book come out. It's called the Role of the Artist in the Age of Artificial Intelligence. I am so genuinely excited to unpack this book. I haven't heard this tape before and it's something that I can't wait for our listeners to learn about. But before we do that, what's an AI hack that you are using that you think listeners should try?

3:19 Lucas Cantor: You know, there's so much stuff that just isn't useful and it's, it's clever and it's a, you know, like a cool math problem and a cool capability but. But it's really not that useful to most people. But one that I do find myself using all the time is stem separation. So for listeners who aren't musicians, like one of the things that I do in my music career is like a, A label or something. We'll say, hey, we want a version of this song that, you know, like say Bonnie Tyler's holding out for a hero or. But we want it to be like new and we want it to fit with this trailer or this piece of advertising. And so that's great to do. Except for the multi tracks of Bonnie Tyler's holding up for a Hero probably don't exist. And if they do exist, they exist somewhere that you can't find them. But there are many companies. My favorite one is music. AI Moises is the product that you can upload this song and it will split it out into like, okay, here's the drums, here's the keyboards, and here's the vocals. And so then I. This is very useful to me and I use it all the time.

4:18 Georgie Healy: And beautifully explained even for those of that might not be in the music industry, but we can all understand how that would work. And you can hear the different lines of the different instruments. By the way, I have to ask you, Taylor Swift's wedding has just happened. Did you hear about the artists that were at that. That is wild.

4:36 Lucas Cantor: Georgie. I'm proud, I'm proud to say I do not have a take on Taylor Swift's wedding.

4:41 Georgie Healy: Paul McCarthy played a song he never plays live. Like, it is crazy. It's crazy.

4:47 Lucas Cantor: She's a legend. She's maybe the greatest of all time at what she does. And she's the goat. Yeah. If anyone is deserving of having the greatest wedding ever, that's cool. I Can barely keep up with my friends weddings. So I'm not really that interested in hers.

4:59 Georgie Healy: Lucas, you're coming to Australia soon, your first trip. I'm so excited for you. And it's not just for baseball. You are here for Big Sound, which I have been hearing about for months. I'm super pumped for this. It's had a role in launching artists like Tones and I Flume gang of youths. And now you're coming to join us. What are you most excited about? What are you going to be part of it for?

5:25 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, it's a. It's a big event. I'm super excited to be a part of it. I think my role is to talk about how technology and the arts have co evolved and maybe assuage some of the fear around AI and music. Fear that is, I think, entirely unjustified and unwarranted. And one of my, you know, one of the things I wrote my book about is about how artists can collaborate with technology and how technology. The book, which is called Unfinished the Role of the Artist in the Age of Artificial Intelligence. I think it should have been called the Role of Artificial Intelligence in the Arts. I like had this brainstorm just a few days ago, but that's really what the book is about. It's about how do we use these tools to tell stories. And the important thing is the stories that we tell and how we tell them, not the technology we use to tell them.

6:11 Georgie Healy: I think it's such an important topic. I do sometimes speak to artists and musicians. Unfortunately like not enough. I wish there were more in my life and I feel big sound, you'll meet more. Well, exactly. We should all be a big sound to meet more. I just think it shouldn't be one or the other. I see in social media, I see in comments, you know, with images. Well, at least it's not AI and. And with music. Will I refuse to listen to music with AI and it's like I do find it really because it seems to be so black and white. It's like you can have no technology. And I'm like, well, if you listen to Radiohead, like surely like familiar with some technology, like I'm confused. Why, why the hill people want to die on is AI specifically. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

7:03 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, I mean if you're listening to music in 2026, you're using some kind of technology, you know, unless. Unless you're I guess, in a church at a, you know, period appropriate recital.

7:15 Georgie Healy: Hyper organ.

7:17 Lucas Cantor: Yeah. I mean look, even. Even Then those musicians are prob. Probably reading off of iPads. My. My sister. How do you tune it, music musician? How do you tune it?

7:24 Georgie Healy: Yeah, like, if you don't have any technology, how do you tune the mic pipe walking these days?

7:29 Lucas Cantor: Georgie, that is a very interesting question that has a detailed and long historical answer. But I will just. Actually, it is an interesting thing that, like, before digital, not digital technology, but before the modern age, let's say before recording especially, tuning was just different from town to town. So, like, something would just be tuned to the local organ and you would just tune to like, kind of whatever was there. So the. Our notes, Our scale has actually drifted since the. Since the Renaissance. And it used to be about, like, what we would recognize as like a whole step, like almost one key on a piano flat from what it is today. So period ensembles, Renaissance ensembles will play in that tuning and they will sometimes play in different temperaments.

8:14 Georgie Healy: The.

8:15 Lucas Cantor: I could go on and on about this, but this is fascinating. Fascinating, but no, it's. I mean, yeah, it's a real. It's. It's one of the things that is not baked into most music technology is that, you know, what we take for granted? This, this, you know, this piano. Right. Well, we take this for granted. So, like, in our system of temperament. Yeah, this is 2 Oxy. So in our system of temperament, there is an equal space between these two notes as there are between like, say, these two notes. Right.

8:44 Georgie Healy: For people listening.

8:45 Speaker C: Yeah.

8:45 Lucas Cantor: White key, black key. So like a half step is a half step, but that's wrong. That's an approximation of. Of like the. The way that music actually resonates. So if you were to take, say, for example, this C and this and this A, which is a sixth, this interval is horribly out of tune with what it should be mathematically, and it's audibly out of tune. And if I were to play you. If I were to play you a natural sixth and a equal temperament, six, which is what we would call it, you could hear the difference. We're just used to it. So, you know, people like music is based and understood by the conventions that we hold as a society. And it is not a like, natural phenomena. It is something that humans have created, and it is meaningful to us because we understand the meaning behind it the same way that language is meaningful to us because we understand. Understand the meaning behind it.

9:39 Georgie Healy: I love this. So, like, are these purists, like, you can't use AI. You can't use technology. It's like, well, what you think of as pure music A natural eighth or whatever might not even necessarily be that specific. Like you don't actually know how that's evolved over time kind of thing.

10:00 Lucas Cantor: The road to puritanism goes further than most people would like.

10:05 Georgie Healy: Oh, my gosh.

10:06 Speaker C: Okay.

10:07 Georgie Healy: So on this, like, let's paint a picture for our listeners. You're a composer. Lucas, you're a producer, you're an author, you're a multi instrumentalist. You've already brought out a piano. If you are forced to give one of your many, like, titles to AI, could you. And what would it be?

10:29 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, this is the irony of being a, you know, AI. Personal. I am. Yeah. I don't know if. I'm certainly not an evangelist. I'm. I'm just, I'm Because I think partly because I'm an investor in music technology broadly, which is not just AI.

10:44 Georgie Healy: Oh, we should have added investor into that.

10:46 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, yeah, that's.

10:47 Speaker C: Yeah.

10:47 Lucas Cantor: Part of my. It's my bad side hustle, I guess. But so, so I end up talking about this a lot and about, you know, the role of technology in the arts. And I don't find AI specifically, other than a few narrow use cases, one of which, stem separation I just gave you, I don't find it, to me, particularly useful. I. I do understand why someone who's not like a trained. Who's not a trained musician would find something like SUNO useful. And I always pick on Suno because they're the biggest ones. But there's a bunch of companies that do what they.

11:20 Georgie Healy: And explain soon.

11:20 Speaker C: I.

11:21 Georgie Healy: For people that aren't familiar, you go

11:22 Lucas Cantor: to the website, you type in a prompt and it will make you a song.

11:25 Georgie Healy: Yeah.

11:25 Lucas Cantor: And so it's. It's just like, you know, hardcore metal

11:28 Georgie Healy: and the theme of corn. But make it these lyrics.

11:31 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, you could get that from literally what you just said. You could probably get something. And, you know, there are a lot of ethical problems with the way SUNO trained their model. And that is the. That is what, you know, that's their biggest PR hurdle at the moment. I mean, they basically just stole all of the music in the world and trained on it. And it is unclear. This is still, you know, this lawsuit's pending. It is unclear whether what they did is illegal or not. It's certainly unethical whether, you know, whether. Whether they broke the law or not. It's certainly unethical. It's going to leave a bad taste in the mouths of musicians no matter what they do subsequently. That said, the product is really quite amazing. Yeah, it sounds. It sounds Great. But I don't really, you know, people accuse me of being an elitist because I'm a, you know, professional composer. And like, I don't really understand the point of Suno beyond entertainment. And that is, you know, I, I stand by that. Like, I enjoy making sounds and making them cool and getting into the details of that is like what I like to do. That's what I view as my job. But everybody making music is complicated and different people like different parts of it. So like, for me, the part that I would be happy to have AI take over is like, I don't love mixing and you know, like just turning the knobs, getting the sounds exactly right. I, you know, I'm okay at it. I'm serviceable at it. I don't love it. Other people do love it. So like, you know, for me, maybe that's the one that I would be okay with AI helping me with. And I have used tools like, like ROEX to help me with that and like Lander, that, that can help you with that. And the result of all these tools that I'm naming for, for the purists in the audience who would not want to use AI or don't want any AI involved in their music is like, because of ROEX and Lander and Suno and all these musical tools that make amateurs able to bring professional grade stuff to market, all music sounds better. So like, all music, no matter who you are, like, you can record with your guitar into your iPhone and it sounds better today than it did five years ago. So, so it's a, it's a, it's a pretty profound leap. And the baseline for what like sonic quality is in music is. I mean, it's sort of like a frog in hot water. Like, it's so much better than it was just 10 years ago. And we don't notice it because it's kind of inching up slowly. But like what you would accept, I mean, I think about demo tapes I made when I was a kid, like on tape, in a room, in an untreated room with just a microphone and no, you know, digital enhancement. And they, you know, you could make it, you could make an argument that they sound, they have a certain vibe that maybe you like and maybe you don't. But as far as fidelity and you know, how much of the music was actually captured and how much noise was accepted and rejected, it's just, it's light years ahead of where it was even just a few years ago, let alone a few decades ago.

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14:59 Georgie Healy: So you can see the magic in AI in the way that it makes sound quality so beautiful to listen to. And I, and I really admire that because for someone like me, I, I don't see the nuance necessarily unless you were to fully point it out to me. Another thing, I would hear it like

15:16 Lucas Cantor: you would hear it just back to back. You'd be like, oh yeah, that's definitely better.

15:19 Georgie Healy: So obviously better.

15:20 Speaker C: Yeah.

15:20 Lucas Cantor: The same way if you listen to a recording from the 20s, you can hear that like recording technology has evolved Grainy.

15:25 Georgie Healy: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I'll use terms that musicians probably don't use. One thing I'd love you to unpack a little bit for me too. It's probably so obvious to you how Suno has stolen music, but to me I'm like, when you say like how much work goes into it, end to end, how many hours and what does it really mean for a musician or a composer or a producer to have music stolen? Oh, you could just record something else though, like no big deal. Like, like make it clear to us how deal this is to musicians and the like.

16:02 Lucas Cantor: Yeah. I mean your audience, if I'm not mistaken is like business savvy people for the most part. Right. So, okay, it's very simple that music is a commodity much like commercial real estate. So when you make a song, it is very difficult to make a song that people know. It is easy to make a song that nobody knows. It is very difficult to make a song that people know. And songs that people know are incredibly valuable. They are valuable not just because you get paid to perform them, but they are valuable because there are entire royalty streams and industries that are attached to them. So a song like Everybody Wants to Rule the World I'll take as an example because I have some involvement in. It was a very popular song in the 80s and it was probably worth the most amount of money that it had ever been worth in, you know, 1980, whatever, when it came out. It kept decaying after that, but it hits sort of a flat line. It's a song that everybody kind of knows of. Right. You know, maybe you can't sing the Lyrics. But you listen to it and you sort of, oh, yeah, I know that song. I heard that.

16:59 Georgie Healy: I love it.

16:59 Lucas Cantor: That is. That's the. That's true of every hit. So that familiarity has value because people gravitate towards what's familiar in the world of entertainment and, you know, in the world generally. So that familiarity has value. So when I did a cover of that song with the artist Lord, it wasn't just her stardom that. That brought that to life. I mean, it was her stardom that made the version that we did amazing.

17:22 Speaker C: But.

17:22 Lucas Cantor: But the fact that the song was recognized gave it this other dimension that made it into a hit. And that dimension is what's valuable in a song. And to, like, take the composition and ingest it and just sort of strip it and use it as training data is stealing something that is valuable. Right? Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense. I guess that. So use the analogy of commercial real estate again. It's sort of like coming into your building, laser measuring everything and then using that to design a new building.

17:52 Georgie Healy: Right, I see.

17:52 Lucas Cantor: So it's like, did you steal it? I don't know. But you entered without my permission, and what you did is definitely unethical.

17:58 Georgie Healy: I love that analogy because, yeah, we've. We've all heard covers before. We love a cover. Covers can be beautiful. Sometimes covers are better than the original. I listened to Lord's, like, your involvement in that song. I listened to the song. It's such a. A different take, and it's so beautiful in its own right. I. I love the band Deftones. They've covered a lot of the Smith songs. Very different vibe coming from a new metal band, you know, and, like, they both have their place, in my opinion, that. That's just adding something very special. Like, I have to ask you, while you're on the show, the listeners would be begging me to. How was that process come, like, creating something special in you and tell me about it?

18:44 Lucas Cantor: So I unfortunately have a kind of disappointing answer to this question. But my. I do detail it in my book quite a bit about, like, you know, how it came about and how. And how we. How we went about it once. Once it. Once we had gotten the job, but it was done entirely remotely. I've never met Lord still, so it

19:03 Georgie Healy: was closer than ever.

19:05 Lucas Cantor: Yeah. When you visit, I'll be as close as I've ever been. I went to a. I mean, I met her, like, in passing at a concert, you know, but I've never, like, you know, talked to her. And you Know, I joke in the book that like, it was done remotely and the vocals could have been recorded in any studio in the world except for mine. I literally have no idea where she did it.

19:25 Speaker C: Wow.

19:26 Lucas Cantor: So, yeah, it was done, you know, entirely on, you know, we didn't quite have the technology we have today, but we did have, you know, like, what we're using right now. Riverside is. I don't know if it's a derivation or just a sort of similar family to technologies that musicians have been using for decades. So we used to use like thing called Source Connect, where I was able to like, listen to the board of a studio halfway across the world in my own studio. And this used to be incredibly expensive by the hour. Now there's a company called Audio Movers who are good friends of mine. It's a wonderful company, but, like, I can literally, with a $20 a month subscription, listen to any studio in the world. It's how I do all my work now is I'll like just. I can literally just log in to someone else's rig and listen to them manipulate stuff as in real time. But this capability we've had for a long time. So it's just, it's just gotten like, cheaper and cheaper and better in the last, in the last 15 or 20 years.

20:26 Georgie Healy: And for the people that are in the social media comments saying I hate, I hate AI in the creative space, in the creative industry, are they missing something about. Well, in the past you needed so much capital, so much money, connections. Is this a democratization of being people that have talent, being able to bring a beautiful finished product? Like, am I simplifying it or is that true?

20:50 Lucas Cantor: Yes, you are simplifying it.

20:52 Georgie Healy: Oh, shit.

20:53 Speaker C: It is.

20:54 Lucas Cantor: No, I mean, it's not. Like your impulse is not wrong. It is a democratization, as I said, of sound quality is a democratization of like, of being able to get something that is ready for market faster. The same way that, you know, you can vibe code an app to a standard that was impossible even five years ago. That doesn't mean that you can design a good app and almost everybody can't. And it's the same thing with music. So, like, the fact that you have all my tools, like, so Georgie, I could take you or any of my listeners, you can come to California and sit down at my rig and try to. Yeah, I mean, unless you're a musician, you're not going to be able to do it. And like, and even if you are a musician, I have like every musician, every composer has their own instrument. So it's, you know, that they made that is specific to them. So even someone who knows logic, which is the software that I use, would take a few minutes to get comfortable on my rig, or even a few hours. So it's. So it is a democratization of. And it's a. Like, it's a. It's a fallacy. It's a fallacy promoted by AI companies that AI democratizes creativity. What it does is it helps creative people do things better, which is useful if you are a creative person, but it is not useful if you are not a creative person.

22:11 Georgie Healy: So, you know, Love.

22:13 Lucas Cantor: Yeah. Well, the way. The way I think of it is that, like, you know, if you accept the, you know, talking point that AI can make, can help you realize anything you can imagine, then the obvious bottleneck is your imagination. And, you know, that's. That's what artists work on, and that's what artists cultivate. They cultivate their ability to generate good ideas that are fully formed and that can. That can communicate things. And that's. That's a skill that I think is underrated outside of the arts.

22:42 Georgie Healy: It reminds me of. And this is such a silly comparable, but it reminds me of when Black Swan came out and everyone said, oh, Natalie Portman learned how to be a professional ballet dancer for the film. And as someone who's done even, like. Like, I did, I think, 15 years of ballet and was never even close to the standard of a professional ballet dancer. I was like, how dare you? Like, you can't just, like, give someone all the tools and even the training and all the rest of it to be at that level. Just, you know, Georgie, I'm the same

23:16 Lucas Cantor: way with movies where our actors conduct, like, if you know what conducting is, they look absolutely ridiculous.

23:24 Georgie Healy: If you tell me why.

23:25 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, it kind of.

23:26 Georgie Healy: Tell me why.

23:26 Lucas Cantor: Well, I mean, it's. It's. It's. It's for the same reason that Natalie Portman, you know, being a ballet dancer, it's for the same reason you swap

23:34 Georgie Healy: your arms around, like. I don't know what you mean.

23:36 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the reason. It's. It's actually very. It's actually kind of profound that. I mean, the reason is because you know what you're looking at and, you know, and you're. And you're like, you know, for most people, the idea that a conductor stands in front of an orchestra and waves his arms around and is perfectly fine, like, your life will be robust and beautiful and filled with joy, if that's what you think a Conductor does. It really doesn't matter if you are trying to be a conductor. It's much different. So. And I think that this is one of the things that social media and just the sheer fire hose of information that has proliferated in the last 200 years has done for our society is that it has made us believe that expertise is not valuable and. And that anybody can know anything. And, like, the evidence for this is. And I do believe that anyone can know everything or anything, but that doesn't mean that everyone does know anything. Everything.

24:27 Georgie Healy: All right, I agree.

24:28 Lucas Cantor: That means.

24:28 Georgie Healy: No, I get you, but you nailed it. Yes, but my.

24:31 Lucas Cantor: And my. My evidence for this was, like, very early in the research for my book. I, you know, I'm not an academic. I had no idea how to go about writing this book. And so I was like, I thought, well, let me just ask someone who's smart and knows stuff that I don't know. And so I asked my doctor, like, my actual primary care physician if I could take him out to coffee. Yeah, yeah. Just like, you know, the guy who tells me I got a cold. Right.

24:54 Georgie Healy: He seems smart.

24:55 Lucas Cantor: Yeah. Well, I mean, I knew that he was very learned in a way that I wasn't. Right. And so, like, I don't know anything really about medicine, and I assumed he didn't know much about music. And that was confirmed by, you know, asking him. And so I took him to coffee and I said, like, you know, tell me what you think about artificial intelligence. And he said, well, I'm sure that artificial intelligence could do something like write a pop song, but there's no way it could ever diagnose a disease. Right? So. And I was like this.

25:22 Georgie Healy: Get him on the show. Come on.

25:24 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, yeah, we'll see if we can. Well, so the. But. But his reasoning was very reasonable. And this is the. Like, I've asked this question to many people, and they all have some version of the same answer, which is that I'm sure artificial intelligence can do fill in something that they're not an expert in, but I doubt that it could do a thing that they know all the details of. Right. So for us who are not doctors, I assume that a disease is like collecting X amount of data points and running them through a database, but that is not at all apparently what diagnosing a disease is. Like, I've never done it. Right.

25:57 Georgie Healy: I've never been more out of my depth with diseases and music. Lucas. But, like, I'll believe both of you. Yes. Yeah.

26:03 Lucas Cantor: And with music, I mean, like, you know, the idea, like, you know, it's. It takes a lot of work to get to something that sounds really simple and takes a lot of effort and, and a lot of genius to get to something that you listen to and just think, oh, right, that's music. The greatest example of this, you know, is. I mean, there's so many good examples, but if you think of like an Alan Menken song, you know, any of the Disney songs from the 90s, you don't even think of someone having written them. They just seem to exist with these characters or, you know, anything by John Williams, you know, like, try to imagine Star wars without the Score. Without the Score, or Indiana Jones. These don't seem like created pieces of work. They just seem like part of your life. And, you know, I think it was Ray Kurzweil said that the best technology becomes invisible. And, you know, the evidence for that is like, there is just. I don't even know how many servers are like, burning electricity for us to just have this conversation from Australia to Los Angeles completely seamlessly. But, you know, this technology is invisible to us.

27:06 Georgie Healy: That's such a great way of putting it. It kind of reminds me of AI and people being like, I don't exactly understand how it works under the hood. And it's like every time I pick up a mobile phone, I have no idea how it does, what it does. It just does.

27:21 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, I don't know what my car does under the hood, frankly.

27:25 Georgie Healy: Agree. And somehow we, we use it every day. I want to ask you, you know, obviously you were passionate about writing this book. Obviously, to me, who knows a little bit about you, I can see why this was so important. But cast me back to the point where, you know, I read that you called yourself a Luddite for most of your career. So basically, you know, the purists that we were talking about before, when did you. When did you first start to be like, I need to reassess my thinking here?

28:00 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, I've. I've always been just a little bit more curious than cautious, and I think that's that. And just in, I mean, just like an inch more, right? Or about 3cm more. And so I think that the, the impetus for me, like, had I not sort of stumbled into technology, I would have been one of those people, you know, bitterly bemoaning the demise of civilization and music because AI is ruining everything, which it's not. And like, you know, it is also, like, for those of you who might be. Nobody who believes this has listened to this far, but for those of you who might have. Have had an open mind. You know, the idea that technology is destroying music is, you know, it's as old as the sea. It's what every generation says about every other generation. And it is, you know, the one constant in human history and certainly the one constant in music history is change. And so saying that the old stuff is not as good as the new stuff is like saying that yesterday's weather was not as good as today's.

29:07 Georgie Healy: Play your old stuff. Yeah, yeah.

29:09 Lucas Cantor: I mean, it's an observation and it. And it's true, but it doesn't matter. And it doesn't really mean anything. So. And it's. And better in music is a relative term. It just means that it. Like what people are saying when they say that today's music doesn't. Is not as good. It's just. What they mean is they don't understand it. It doesn't speak to them. And nor should it. You know, musicians, musicians, like pop music, for example, the music that most people are familiar with is made by young people, for young people. And when you are no longer a young person, you continue to listen to the music that was made for you when you were a young person. That is what almost everybody's experiences.

29:48 Georgie Healy: Guilty, guilty. And. And, you know, for you, like, I found this story incredibly interesting. Right. So most people that are in the music industry or any industry might not have this experience where you were approached to go into a partnership with a very big tech company. Right. One of the largest tech companies on the planet. Tell us that story and tell us your thinking before that happened. And then did that evolve as you continued the partnership?

30:22 Lucas Cantor: I'll tell you, one of the things that really helped me in that project was that I am. I live in the United States, and at that time I hadn't traveled, like, a lot, and I had never heard of Huawei. So they do no business in the U.S. i mean, I think they sell switches, like, you know, something that, you know, you would know if you were an executive at AT&T. But I had never heard of them. Right. And so, like, for me, when my manager brought this to me, I was like, okay, whatever. Like, I took it, I took it seriously. But, like, I wasn't intimidated by it, as if Apple had asked me. So that. That really helped, I think. But I'll just sort of take you to the beginning. So I was a Luddite in like a musical Luddite, and that I made music. I learned to make music. Like, I learned to just play guitar. I didn't care about recording at all. I just learned to be a good guitar player. And then I started recording in a studio that was totally analog. It had a. Had. It had a computer, but the computer was basically used as a tape machine, Right. And so the sound came from the instruments and from the board. And then I moved to Los Angeles, and I got a job at Hans Zimmer's studio, which is a hub of music technology. And I realized that as a composer, what Hans had built was the ability for me to use any sound I could possibly imagine at any time. And that's what a composer's job is, is to combine sounds together in a cool way. And, you know, the. The limitation, like I said before, is your imagination. Now, you know, it used. It was. It was different. In the 19. The 1990s, even if you wanted to, like, demo something, you had to get people in a room to do it. And at Hans's, you could. You could just demo it immediately so you could fail faster, you could innovate. You could do all kinds of interesting things. And so I sort of begrudgingly began to see the value of using technology and music at that time. And then when I was connected with the. With the technologists who wanted to. The Unfinished Symphony, I was in this unique position of having done a lot of orchestral work because I did the song with Lord. I was doing a lot of recording at Abbey Road and just working with big orchestras and also not being. And also not being afraid of technology. So, like, I was like, you know, it seems like, like, so. So Huawei asked me to finish Schubert's Unfinished Symphony using artificial intelligence. And I would have thought this would be a competitive gig, but I think I was the only qualified person who said yes.

32:39 Georgie Healy: So much to unpack there. I'm gonna start with Schubert's Unfinished Symphony. Tell us about that. And I don't like things that are unfinished. I'd be like, please, someone give it a go. But why did. Why did you use AI for it? Tell me a little bit about the symphony itself and then. And then what happened next?

33:01 Lucas Cantor: Sure. Well, Georgie, your proclivity to finish things, you know, does set you apart from syphilitic century composers. Yes. So. So, yeah, the. So Schubert was. Well, I'll tell you one funny thing about the Unfinished Symphony. So the Unfinished Symphony is Schubert's eighth. He wrote two movements of it, and then he sort of sketched out. A symphony typically has four movements. He wrote two movements. He sketched out a third. And scholars who know more about Schubert than me Think that the fourth movement was actually another piece that he used in some other context. So. So maybe he did finish it, but not really. He never, you know, bound it together and so very.

33:38 Georgie Healy: Type B Schubert. Okay, got it.

33:41 Lucas Cantor: No, Schubert was. Schubert was fucking crazy, right? Like, Schubert was a genius, but he was out of his goddamn mind.

33:46 Georgie Healy: I love that about him.

33:48 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, no, he's, he's like, I think of all the, of all the composers of that era, he's the one you would least likely, you would least like to know personally, but the one you would have most wanted to have known, if that makes sense.

34:01 Georgie Healy: I can think of some present day music musician equivalents that I will not drop on the show. But yes, go ahead.

34:07 Lucas Cantor: I think everyone has. I think everyone has that friend.

34:11 Georgie Healy: So.

34:12 Lucas Cantor: So Schubert's 8th Symphony is called the Unfinished, and it immediately just conjures this. And Schubert died very young in his, in his early 30s. And it conjures this image of like Schubert with a quill and the candle is burning and he's about to die and he's just trying to pen these notes. It's so romantic. But that's not what happened. He just stopped working on it. So. And we know this, this is not my, you know, a controversial opinion. We know this because there is a complete ninth Symphony. So. Yeah, so he just was working on this and he was famous for, like, he would. Schubert would write music. He wrote as if music was something he was trying to like, expel from his body. Like, he would just write on scraps of paper and just sort of throw them around to the point where his friends, his friend once collected paper from around his piano, brought it to a copyist, had it, you know, beautifully laid out, and then a few weeks later gave it to him and said, hey, what do you think of these? And he played them. He goes, oh, these are fantastic. Who wrote these? Had literally had no idea of the music that he had just written. So. So I think he just, I think he just kind of, you know, there are technical reasons why it would have been difficult for him to finish the unsymphony unfinished Symphony that have to do with, you know, styles and constraints of the time that were different 20 years after he died. So I, the, the critique I've gotten about the Unfinished Symphony was that, you know, it sounds a little bit modern. You know, it sounds a little bit modern, A, because I was the one who finished it, and B, because I thought that Schubert would have come back to it years later and used different techniques that were available that would have been available to him then that weren't available to him when he died. So that was my thinking, you know, right or wrong, that's what I. That's what I thought. But the. The idea initially to finish Schubert's Unfinished Symphony came from a technologist named Mick Grierson in the uk. And Huawei wanted to do this to. To announce the Mate 20 Pro, which was their flagship phone of 2019. So they had the idea that Mick had this technology that was. It was an lstm. So, you know, basically stone age technology by AI standards. And it generated melodies for us. We prompted it with all of Schubert, or. Sorry, we trained it on, like, monophonic. So just. Just the melody, not any harmony, just the melodies of as much Schubert as we could get our hands on. And then we prompted it with the melodies of the Unfinished Symphony, and it gave us back some, you know, somewhat reasonable melodic ideas back. And then I orchestrated them and made them into a symphony.

36:38 Georgie Healy: 2019 is before anyone had AI even on their radars. I think people still spoke about AI like, it was, you know, NFTs or crypto or James Cameron, like, if I could bring the Titanic makeup. And like. Like, it was just like, okay. Now it's just, you know, standard. You know, it's. It's just part of the lexicon now, whether you like it or you hate it, everyone knows what AI is.

37:04 Lucas Cantor: You know, Georgie, I want to push back on that. I don't think anybody knows what AI is.

37:09 Georgie Healy: You still think they don't know?

37:10 Lucas Cantor: No, I know it's a. It's. I mean, I don't know what it is either. It's a marketing term. Like, it's different. You know what. Like, what is considered AI today is. I mean. I mean, what is considered AI today? It's like. I mean, I. I mean, I think we all sort of understand that. Like, if you're using a large language model, that's artificial intelligence.

37:29 Georgie Healy: Yes.

37:30 Lucas Cantor: If you're using a recommendation algorithm on the back end of, you know, TikTok, are you using AI? Is AI using you? I mean, like, is that even AI or is that just.

37:40 Georgie Healy: No, that's a fair pushback. It's a fair pushback because the term is used interchangeably for, like, general intelligence. Like, a human could do this, but then it can't count the number of eyes in the letter Heidi. And it's like. Well, like, most human adults can count how many eyes there are. So what do you mean when you say general intelligence? The other day I got really cranky and had this Huge rant about AI agents because everyone just says, oh, I've got an AI agent. Well, an AI agent is AI that works on its own with no human intervention. And I'm like, well, no, no agents exist. Then, like. Like you're just using that word for email triage. So it's a fair pushback, but in 2019, people really didn't know what AI was. Is. Is like this field, the field as

38:31 Lucas Cantor: we know it did not exist. Yes, it was like, I guess it was starting to exist. It was really kind of a marketing term. I mean, GPT. Like. Like Google was experimenting with GPT at the time, and they were like, pretty good. They weren't amazing. And. And there. So it was a. Yeah, it was a different time. And I mean, just to. Just to talk about agents for a second, like, I just. So I'm just like, less sanguine about artificial intelligence than most people just from having, you know, sort of lived in it for a long time. One of the things, you know, I noticed there's a commercial that I see in the States for like, an Open Claw derivative. It's Open Claw, but like for dummies or something, right?

39:07 Georgie Healy: So it's like Open Claw made Open

39:10 Lucas Cantor: Claw on the back end, but like, you just prompt it, like natural. And like, the use cases they. They show in the commercial are email triage. And the AI can call a restaurant and make a reservation for you, which is also like Open Claws use case like it always talks about. We can call and make a reservation, a thing that no human being does or needs to do. Like, you don't need to call a person to make a reservation at any restaurant in the world pretty much literally ever. So this is. And. And you know, the. The other stuff that they show AI doing in commercials is like, all things that it doesn't actually do. Right? It's pie in the sky vaporware stuff that we wish it did. And like, I wish that my AI could like, organize my schedule for me, remind me that I should pick up flowers for my wife, tell me to not forget, you know, X, Y and Z. But it doesn't actually do that. Right? Like, maybe it will in the future, and maybe if we just pour a few more trillion dollars into it, it will. But at the moment it doesn't.

40:05 Georgie Healy: So I. Yes, this is such a good pushback. And for the listeners that feel like a year ago, AI agents were being promoted, you know, book flights for you is another one that they. Oh, they all book our flights for us. No one has an agent autonomous Booking their flights. Imagine that happened before you got to Big Sound, Lucas. Like, don't worry, an agent will do it. Would you trust that I wouldn't. I would be like, hell no. Would it check that you. Yeah, I just even trust is like, you know.

40:37 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, I guess the, the argument and the sort of emotional. What. What makes it seem emotionally possible is that, you know, I don't actually know the person that did book my flights to Big Sound.

40:49 Speaker C: Right.

40:49 Lucas Cantor: It was just a person who sent me an email. Like, had it been an agent, I would not have known. However, had I gotten to the airport and realized that it hallucinated a flight that didn't exist, I would have at that point figured it out. So, yeah, there is like, you know, I don't believe that there is no future for this technology. I believe that there is a robust future for this technology if we can get it to be a lot less expensive than it currently is. And by, by expensive, I mean the actual cost of it, not the cost to the consumer at the moment, which is heavily subsidized. But, you know, I think there is a use case for it. But the way that I think about, you know, say Claude or OpenAI is that to me, they're about as useful as Microsoft Excel. And you know, for my business, I wouldn't want to run my business without Microsoft Office, but if it cost like $5,000 a year, I would just find an alternative. Like, it's not that useful to me. So, you know, at the current price

41:44 Georgie Healy: point, you have the ability to use your brain. Like, I think for some people that have never used Microsoft Office, don't know how to use Excel, don't know how to use Google sheets or all these tools like graduates that are coming out of university. I worry for them without a foundation layer, like how they would survive without AI. Not saying it's a good thing, but to you and I, if you removed AI, I think we'd function perfectly well in society without it. I have one hot take, two for you for your opinion, if that's okay.

42:16 Lucas Cantor: Of course. As many as you like.

42:18 Georgie Healy: Here's a hot take that people are saying B2B SaaS is dead. The platforms like the Hubspots, like the CRMs, like the Salesforce, like these big tools that big companies and enterprises use is dead because AI exists. We could vibe code that. But do people want a person to yell at at the end of the day when it fails? And if that agent booked your flight and you get to the airport and you have no flight and you Got no seat and you can't come to Big Sound. Surely you want to yell at someone. I want to yell at someone. What are your thoughts?

42:55 Lucas Cantor: I do want to yell at someone, Georgie. Yes. And there is. I think it's deeper than that. I mean, it's, it's, you know, being in the sort of world of capital markets as I, as I find myself sometimes, it is the idea that B2B SaaS is dead is like a very convenient reason for OpenAI's IPO to work out. You know, and it's a very, it's very good news for people who have the biggest microphones in the world. That doesn't make it true. And it's, you know, industries also take a long time to die. The music industry is often touted as an example of an industry that was murdered by technology. But the music industry is bigger today than it was before now.

43:48 Georgie Healy: Really?

43:50 Lucas Cantor: Much, much bigger. Not like, okay, healthy, much bigger. So, you know, it was disrupted, but it did not cease to exist. And, you know, trillions of dollars do not vanish. You know, brilliant people who have robust companies do not go away just because their valuations go a little bit lower. So I don't. The. The SAS apocalypse is. I mean, it's. Hilarious. Word.

44:17 Georgie Healy: First of all, Brightwood. No argument. Yeah.

44:21 Lucas Cantor: So kudos to whatever journal came up with that. But, but, but it is, it is unlikely. I mean, and this is, you know, for anyone who's ever worked at a big company, I mean, There are Fortune 500 companies that are still running a version of windows from 10 years ago, probably. It is like, not a obvious or easy thing to change any software in.

44:44 Georgie Healy: Beautifully said. I worked in automotive. Top automotive companies in the world. They were using Systems from the 80s because to rip that out would ruin their whole supply chain. Like, they just couldn't do it.

44:58 Lucas Cantor: Like, this is, this is well known in the States, maybe not elsewhere, but our, like the important parts of our military are like run on computers from 60 years ago. Because you can't just like upgrade a nuclear facility.

45:12 Speaker C: Right.

45:12 Lucas Cantor: You just, if it's working, you just leave it.

45:14 Georgie Healy: It's straight up.

45:16 Lucas Cantor: Yeah.

45:16 Georgie Healy: It's not broken.

45:18 Lucas Cantor: I think that the, the problem here, and this is really like one of the things, you know, this is, this is one of my theses as an investor. But, but the, the biggest problem with AI and people's reaction to it is that the idea of artificial intelligence engages a part of your brain that does not require you to think critically. It engages the part of your brain that wants to suspend Disbelief. Because AI is a, isn't. It's a story. And the, the, what these companies are doing is they're telling you the story of what this technology might be. And so you engage with it the same way that you might engage with a movie or a television show. If you think about these claims critically and apply them to your own life, they do not hold up. And I mean, we've already, like, we've already given some examples of this. But for anyone who is, you know, afraid of AI, anyone who thinks that AI music is going to ruin the world or that AI is going to rule the world or ruin the world, stop thinking about it as a story, as something that is inevitably going to happen and just start thinking about what are you actually seeing today and what does it look like right now. And it doesn't look much different than it did when I finished Huberts unfinished symphony in 2019.

46:29 Georgie Healy: Okay, so you're a music tech VC, Lucas, if there is a company that you see being a unicorn in future, based on what you're seeing now to your point, what is it?

46:44 Lucas Cantor: Well, interesting question. One of the, one of the cornerstones of our, of our fund is that we're not really in the unicorn business. We think that, we think that music tech companies are severely undervalued and that we can do good multiples, like within the realm of reason. And the other thing is that in entertainment shit happens. So like, you know, we're in the, we're in show business, which means that like, sometimes something happens that makes your thing incredibly valuable and you can't predict what that's going to be. So, you know, the, like labels and publishers are in, and VCs to some degree are in the business of failure. You fail most of the time and your successes are really big. And so we're, so we're, you know, our fund is smaller and we're trying to get a good multiple on a amount of capital that is a rounding error in like an AI, you know, fintech. Right. But, you know, but money is money. So. Yeah. So as far, but as far as like the things that I think that are going to, to answer the spirit of your question, which is what do I think is going to end up winning and be the, you know, the musical tools of the future? I think that it's already sort of happening. There are these big, like a company called Moises, which I already mentioned, which we're invested in, is. It's just like a B2B. It's like a tools platform for musicians. I Mean, it has all kinds of different tools. You know, Charlie Puth is an ambassador. It's all the stuff is ethically trained. It's all super cool. And like, and they've got millions of users. Like, they're doing great. They're providing a service. They don't have a tremendous debt load, they don't have a tremendous AI spend, and they're making money. So if you're making money in the music business, you are killing it.

48:26 Georgie Healy: Hell yeah. Hell yeah.

48:27 Lucas Cantor: And. And companies like Suno, like, I, you know, they have a $500 million valuation already, or is that right now it's $5 billion and like, I don't know what they're going to do to realize that valuation. I, I can tell you what, what they are doing is like, making every mistake that I've seen various companies make over the last three years. Like, they're trying every avenue that I've seen already fail. Maybe the next thing they're going to do is try tokenizing, you know, I don't know. Um, but, you know, the. But. But maybe they'll figure something out. And like the. I think the, you know, when you get a bunch of smart people together trying to accomplish something, generally. Yeah, I don't know if that's true. Do they generally do it? I don't know.

49:12 Georgie Healy: It's well said too, because we do see these like, Vibe coded projects being created and it reminds me of Suno a bit because it's like, oh, that's kind of neat. Like taking the ethics away from it. Oh, kind of cool. Do I need this every single day to Vibe coat my own, like, music in the style of corn? Like, not really.

49:32 Lucas Cantor: Everything that has been, everything that AI. Everything that has been, almost everything that has come out in the last five years has fallen into the category of amusing but not amazing. So, you know, it's great. It's cool. Yeah. Oh, wow. That was fun. And then you move on with your life. Like an article in the newspaper. You read it, it gives you something and then you throw it in the trash. And the, the. So the companies that I see winning are the ones that provide, like, real tools for people to tell stories. You know, in entertainment, that is what we sell. It doesn't matter what part of the business you were in, you were in the storytelling business. And so if you have really good idea for a story and a really good idea of how to tell that story and the way that you tell it and the content of the story resonates with your audience, it doesn't really matter what tools you use.

50:24 Georgie Healy: This brings me to this headline question I'm dying to get your take on. Actually, Ben Affleck had an AI company called Inter Positive he sold to Netflix. Scorsese is using AI for storyboards. Their take is that these are laborious tasks that AI could do. And. And we'll streamline our process. It's not a flash in the pan vibe coding project that you never use. Again, what is your take on these kinds of technologies and systems in the creative industry?

50:53 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, my understanding of what the storyboarding one, for example, is that it's very much like the daw that I use to create music. That it's like a way of abstracting visual information in a way that can be more easily manipulated so you can have more creatives comment meaningfully on it at earlier stages. So to only use. I can only really speak to the example of music. But it used to be that like. So like the first time George Lucas heard the score to Star wars was in a recording session when they were recording it in London too late. Well, the first time that. And I'll just pull this out, but the first time that Christopher Nolan heard the score to let's say Oppenheimer was probably pretty early in the process because Ludwig Goranson is able to generate beautiful sounding demos. Right. The first time you heard it. You know, it always sounds better when you actually record it. But today we are absolutely required, composers are absolutely required to provide realistic sounding demo material. And when you can do that and when you can make it in a manipulative, manipulatable format, you can have a director right next to you and say like, hey, what if that note went up instead of down? And you can have that happen. Or what if that pause was a little bit longer? What if that section came a little bit later? And so you can actually have the director making meaningful contributions and any other creative on the film making meaningful contributions to the music in a way that makes it more collaborative. And so in a case like storyboarding, where, like what just for. For listeners who might not know, for. At a. Every shot in a film is they basically make a comic book first. Right. That's the easiest way to think of it. It's like it's literally every shot in the film and there's all these conventions of like, you show the actor and then there's an arrow which indicates that there's a pan and you can imagine what the pan would look like. Right. But it's. It's basically like a comic book of the film. And this is. These are things that were done by hand, typically, I think, until kind of recently, and then probably done digitally in, like, Photoshop or something like that. And so to have a technology where you can make them and manipulate them in real time means that a director can kind of have one extra cut of his movie. So maybe multiple extra cuts of their movie. Will this make movies better? I don't know, but it will certainly make them different. And it will. And it gives creative people more opportunities to do creative things. So I think that's probably why Ben Affleck and Martin Scorsese were behind these things initially. And then my other. My other thing to say on this hot take is that, like, just because a company sold to Netflix doesn't mean that it's worth anything. So, I mean, I wish them well, and I'm sure it's great, but, like, you know, there are all sorts of reasons that companies buy other companies.

53:34 Georgie Healy: Things get sold. Doesn't really mean much. Okay, great. Great reminder there. Okay. I keep seeing these two Emmys you've got behind you. Lucas, is that a fake green screen? You've got year. Wow.

53:49 Lucas Cantor: Well, I mean, the most important award is. This is my coach of the year award from Chatsworth Junior Baseball, which I got coaching. Coaching kids T ball team. Yep.

53:58 Georgie Healy: Hell, yeah.

53:59 Lucas Cantor: So that's another.

53:59 Georgie Healy: We love all three.

54:02 Lucas Cantor: Yeah, they're all good.

54:03 Georgie Healy: The three were Olympics related. And it's not the sport one, though, right?

54:07 Lucas Cantor: It is the sports one.

54:08 Georgie Healy: Yeah.

54:08 Lucas Cantor: So the. It is. Yeah. So, yeah. When you. When you work on the Olympics, if the Olympics, if the show gets an Emmy, you get an Emmy. So this is like a. It's like a producer Emmy. So. But I'll take it. Emmys are Emmys.

54:21 Georgie Healy: Well, like, I'm proud of you, and I'm sure a lot of other people are. That's incredible. Does this mean you're joining us to the Brisbane 2032 Olympic Games as well? Come on.

54:33 Lucas Cantor: Well, you know, I'm really focused on The Los Angeles 2028 Games, which are coming right up. And, yeah, I have worked in some capacity on every Olympics, on every Olympics since 2002. And if I'm, you know, if I continue in that job, I will certainly be involved. I don't know if I'll be there, but. But if I'm. If I can be there, I will be. Because of technology, I'm able to do my job.

54:55 Georgie Healy: Yeah, exactly.

54:56 Speaker C: But.

54:57 Georgie Healy: But after Big said, I'm sure you'll have a few couches.

55:00 Lucas Cantor: I hope so.

55:01 Georgie Healy: Lucas. I. I Could easily speak to you for another three hours. I know it's nighttime over there, so I won't put you through it. I do want people to check out your book because I think this is giving a little taste of some misconceptions that we all have about the music industry and technology and. And history and. And things that we thought might be the case that, you know, you can very clearly articulate. Aren't. What's one thing, though, before I let you go, that you hope people take away from reading your book as the role of the artist in this time

55:40 Lucas Cantor: of AI Music and technology are almost the same thing. They are inextricably linked. We have always used technology to make music and disseminate music and understand music and. And AI is no different. And this will just. It might change the way that music sounds, but everything that we've ever invented has changed the way that music sounds. From the phonograph to the printing press. It's. It's all changed. And I think, you know, music is cooler and more intricate and more interesting today than it's ever been, so I

56:13 Georgie Healy: think there's nothing to be afraid of. Thank you so much. Lucas, anything else you'd like to shout out before you go?

56:19 Lucas Cantor: No, I'm excited to go to Big Sound. I'm. I have a little substack that I started called Tech Proof, which is about how to, you know, do stuff that will survive, you know, basically any technical. Technical upheaval. And it's pretty simple. I mean, look, I can. I can sum it up in one word, which is like, be good at something.

56:40 Georgie Healy: Yes.

56:41 Lucas Cantor: You know, and this is to. And I think, like, the last thing for, you know, any musicians, and especially young musicians who might have, you know, been listening. And I know a lot of them follow me. Like, get good at music is still a really viable career path, or it's as viable as it's ever been. Right. Like, if you're a music student, you probably will fail, because that is the nature of the business. That is the nature of an elite profession. But you don't have. You have a greater chance to succeed today than you did when I was a kid, because there's more opportunities to make money off of music, and that's not going to go away.

57:16 Georgie Healy: Beautifully ending a fantastic episode. Lukas, thank you so much. I have a substack, so I am going to recommend yours. So if you follow me, guys, you'll see Lucas's pop up now. Thank you so much. I will see you at Big Sound, my friend.

57:30 Lucas Cantor: I am so looking forward to it. I can't wait.

57:33 Georgie Healy: Bye. Thank you so much for listening to In the Blink of AI. If you want to go deeper on anything we've spoken about today, I write a weekly substack called Attention Is All I Need. Yes, it's hilarious. It's a pun and essentially I go into AI rants, tech news events I'm going to and more. It's bite sized and I hear it's awesome. The link is in the show notes below.